You are talking like almost mwd speed that is not getting owned my scram is not godsend thing ... mkay.
You can manually adjust your speed while flying ... and pilot your ship also - instead of orbiting 24/7. It helps to hit stuff, trust me.
But you can also just move fast as hell to catch something you want to catch or disengage if you have to. You are really thinking it's nothing ? Cmon.

Nah 2 more lows are good stuff - you can armor tank it now. But sure you are not forced to do so. 6 mids are still 6 mids - that is a lot on cruiser. If people shield tank cruisers with 3 or 4 mids - i'm sure you can still shield tank ship with 6 mids.

Look at lows as place where you can get nanos, heat sinks, tracking enhancers (for your problem to hit the stuff - it also does work better on phantasm due to hull tracking bonus).

Phantasm is strong, period - about the fking time ;).

lmao all these people thinking the cynabal is OP or even viable. Jesus it's like eve-o's knowledge of the metagame is perpetually stuck 3 years behind the curve.

I bet you guys still think the hurricane is overpowered

phantasm could definitely do with a full set of lights too deal with frigs and it will need a neut so .. more pg and cap is needed really ... reduce the sig radius a little more would be good so it doesn't end up at 200 sig with extenders... maybe exchange some armour ... they are meant too be shield tanked anyway..

@ Medalyn Isis

I'm afraid you need to understand that Sansha nation ship is not Caldari ship , aswell it is not Amarr ship at same time. It's Sansha nation vessel.

Even more if dip into Sansha lore - they do consist members from all 4 major factions - so ship design could also import ideas from entire New Eden.

No concept is invalid for Sansha in this case.

Sorry ... i would hate devs if they would give it something stupid like TD bonus or shield resist bonus (even tho this one is powerful). I love the ... unique bonus on Sansha lineup. Now NOONE does the same thing. Which is nice - we got faction that does it own stuff. Not like Cyna for example ... Yeah looks great ... is not bad. But at the same time it is just pimped minmatar ship.
Phantasm just won over cyna ... instead of being happy about that - you complain.

These criticisms don't make much sense. An ABing Phantasm will be slower than a MWDing one, and hence will track better, all others being equal. If tracking is a problem, then try flying in a different direction, slowing down or turning the AB off.

You criticise the sig radius, yet ignore the biggest sig bloom mod of them all - the MWD, which you would be fitting without the AB bonus. If you want really a small sig, just active shield tank it. Anyway, the speed bonus will exceed the detrimental effects of shield sig bloom in normal conditions.

Edit - your reference to a web range bonus just screams highsec incursion runner wanting to blap at range with a Nightmare.

"Sir we have a Phantasm on short! Closing in at...dear god, it's blowing past our frigate tackle line! WHAT IS THIS EV-" *transmission cuts short as phantasm slices through destroyer with its big frontal blade, and bumps the command carrier 50km in the other direction while red-shifting into the distance*

They rolled the 5% damage per level bonus where the AB is now on top of the original 100% dmg bonus, and added 25% more damage on top of that without removing any guns for free without any offset. It's a buff.

And Naomi misses the point again.

Apparently it's "Grr, Blasters!" in here tonight. Yeah, it can deal about a thousand. But when you say things like "has no problem applying it", that's just bullshit.

Range is part of damage application. It's got, what? 2.5km optimal, *maybe* 8km falloff?

Stop being such an EFT warrior, and look at the ship in the game, with real scenarios, not on paper.

Nerf the bloody web bones like you did with the bloody Kronos (which I also Sold) but for gods sake leave that PG alone.

Stuff

Yet you don't actually fly it

Learn to read:
PHANTASM

Amarr Cruiser Bonus:
7.5% bonus to Medium Energy Turret tracking speed

Caldari Cruiser Bonus:
20% bonus to Afterburner velocity bonus (was 5% energy turret damage)

Role Bonus:
150% bonus to Medium Energy Turret damage (was 100% energy turret damage)


Slot layout: 4H(-1), 6M, 5L(+2); 3 turrets, 0 launchers
Fittings: 890 PWG(-35), 380 CPU(-45)
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 2700(+266) / 2175 / 2065
Capacitor (amount / recharge / cap per second) : 1800(+105) / 495000 (+3750) / 3.5
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 228(+64) / .62(-.06) / 9600000 / 8.25s
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 15 / 15
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 59km / 275 / 7
Sensor strength: 20
Signature radius: 120(-10)

Those bits I so nicely highlighted for you are what I'm talking about. That's a FREE no strings-attached 25% damage buff. They rolled the 5% per level damage that was there before into the role bonus, and stacked another 25% damage bonus on top of that for a grand total of 150%. No guns dropped, no drones dropped. That's a damage buff. It's also not a typo because the did the EXACT SAME THING to the Succubus:

Morning fellows

I've been reading as fast as I can and I'm almost up to most current post but I'm about to be stuck in meetings for a few hours so I wanted to respond to what I'm seeing so far.

Everyone seems unhappy with the Cynabal - fair enough. The balance oriented folks here are going to have a sit down this afternoon to discuss options to add some more unique flavor to the line. Failing any large changes, I'll at least look at the powegrid and make sure Artillery is viable.

Vigilant powergrid seems to be at least a mild concern so I'll look at that again. I'm not sure there will be changes here because if I remember correctly it was trivial to do 1600 + mwd + at least Ions which is probably a bit generous. Will check it out though.

Phantasm is mix of excitement and concern about the tension between the bonuses (guns + speed and sig + shields) which is fair, but I think this is part of what makes it interesting and I'm not really worried about it not being strong enough. Part of how I justified the weird bonus set is by looking at how it performs as a simple MWD/shield skrimisher, which it does quite well.

Hopefully back with more in a few hours. Thanks for the response (except you Capqu)

keep in mind every succubus you buy, every phantasm, every worm, every gila , every cruor, every ashimmu and so on may ... come from my stockpile. Especially those ships i mentioned. For example i got around 170 phantasms.

Yes i'm stupid - you are smart. Obviously everyone in EvE was clever enough to stock exactly correct hulls that will get major buffs. And get easy XX billions just for accepting correct contracts/putting correct buy orders.

Because it's not like i can judge if ship deserves nerf or buff.

I sit on over 400 buffed pirate hulls because of luck i bet. I couldn't predict it - because i'm just poor fw scrub that does not know anything about mighty pirate hulls. Not like awesome Medalyn Isis.

I'm sure i have some contacts in CCP who tell me with months in advance what they gonna change in what ship. Because how such clueless person like me could predict such changes and make such amount of money. IMPOSSIBLE , he must be cheater. He knows nothing about pirate ships. This XX billions effortless profit he made ... it is just luck. He must have 0 idea about pirate hulls. It's just coincidence he stocked correct ships in great numbers before changes got announced !

Aside from the oddly hostile response, I am genuinely confused how sansha ships are NOT getting a damage buff, when it is as clear as day that an extra 25% damage buff got totaled up with its role bonus. I want to know how the heck that works because apparently I'm forgetting how 125% and 150% applied bonuses are the same.

Seriously though..."I think you should stay away from balance discussion as you are clearly a liability, and your incessant babbling on these forums is beginning to hurt my eyes."
For one, I have Aspergers, and fixating on ship mechanics in this game is a very important part of why I love playing this game, so responding in such an offensive manner is both extremely offensive and bewildering to me since I did not make any personal attacks on you.
Secondly, even though you laid out some nice math for me, I still legitimately have no idea how, as I just stated, a 125% effectively applied bonus and a 150% bonus are the same. Because that is exactly what you are saying and trying to pull out of your hat.

They are not saying RoF or how it applies differently in some abstract way. it is simple, straight directed damage multiplied by a percentage. I legitimately have no clue how you could possibly construe that as anything other than it is, unless you see a need to prove you are right regardless of the situation. Which you're kind of not, because what I outlined was simply a missing numerical value that wasn't outlined explicitly by the dev.

Thank you very much for explaining that in a way that makes sense to me spacially. I have been looking at this and running fits quite intently since I woke up this afternoon, since I've basically been waiting for this to happen for 4 years. I have been somewhat cranky since it's past 5 in the morning here and I'm still blitzing the forums over this, so I'm missing a few things here and there while coming up with plans and ideas for what might help since Rise is apparently missing a few things about how ships work.
That being said, I wondered what you might think about this idea for solving the web range/neut-nos range problem blood raiders are facing with the current rebalance iteration:
1, 2, 3 guns on cruor, ashimmu, and bhaal respectively with a 300-400% damage buff. Keep high slots so you have 3,4, and 5 free highs for nos after dropping neut/nos amount bonus in favor of nos/neut range. This way you keep the dps, and slightly less direct neut/nos power, but with range for both nos/neut and web range so the two actually work together. 80% range for frig, 40 for cruiser, and 20 for battleship per level. There's your balanced blood raider line.

I can see the merit with going with another drone boat, but generally blood raiders have lasers as part of the lore, so that might be kind of hard to diverge from. Maybe they could just say screw it and throw range and effectiveness for neut/nos together?

They don't get any drone bonuses, said bonuses which translate to me as being a "drone ship" with that as their primary weapon system. That being said, I would like your idea quite a bit actually if it DID include a drone damage and HP bonus as the amarr bonus, web range as the minmatar bonus, and a neut range bonus as the role bonus with 4, 6, and 8 respectively as the highslots for each of them, all of which could have neuts.
Still; I would be more than happy to go with my initial proposal as it helps with dps quite a bit, even if it does sacrifice some neut power for applied neut range, which I think would be more viable in a pvp setting than straight cap alpha, since range dictation is key. The latter is also why your proposal would work well if it was implemented.

Alright, you guys are getting major real time updates here, I might as well start live tweeting our meetings!

With regards to the Cynabal - we are not going to try and add some kind of web/scram immunity/resistance. While this kind of bonus would certainly be fun, it would force us to make severe changes to all three Angel ships to compensate for the increased power, which would surely feel terrible for all the people enjoying them now. This would be especially true for PVE players who couldn't make use of the new bonus but would be stuck with a much worse ship than they are used to.

The option we do feel good about is warp speed. It supports the hit and run playstyle that Angels are already best at without forcing us to make changes to the combat performance. So, we are looking at roughly a 50% increase in warp speed and acceleration for all three, putting the Cynabal at warp speed multiplier of 5, which is basically destroyer speed. I've also updated the OP with a new powergrid number.

We've also adjusted powergrid on the Ashimmu to make some more room for those PG heavy energy war mods.

We spent time playing with the Vigilant in a lot of different configurations and feel completely confident in the current fitting numbers.

Hope this makes you Angel fans more excited

The Serpentis web bonus is extremely strong. We went into this balance pass thinking it was probably too strong and that we may need to tune it down. In the first Pirate Faction thread (the Frigates) I asked specifically for feedback on this bonus and how players felt about it. We also brought it up with the CSM during the summit.

The vast majority of feedback from all angles pointed towards an agreement that in certain environments this bonus was extremely powerful but that it wasn't having a negative effect on the game overall and we should leave it alone. I'm not sure if anyone remembers by now but when I casually mentioned changing this bonus during a Reddit AMA there was an outcry to prevent us from doing that at all costs.

Internally we are a bit divided even though we all agree it's one of the game's most powerful bonuses. I want to try and leave it because unique points of power like this one, as long as they aren't oppressive, are more interesting than moving everything towards a middle ground.

Could say the same thing about you people.. OMG OP Serpentis Web ships that are for the most part RARELY seen in combat, and still only have an effective range of ~25km Overheated.. Bring something that can dictate range. Bring something with Ranged Weapons. Bring something with neuts. Bring Blood ships with Neuts and long range webs to dictate range.

There are many many counters to the 3 Serpentis ships. And this is above the fact that they aren't cheap, and are most always primary when seen on grid.

Maybe after this we can cry because Arty ships sometimes alpha us, so it's OP. Or now Angel ships will be able to outrun us so we can't catch em.. OP. OMG it Neuted me.. OP. I'm jammed.. OP..

It's not OP, it's you've had a bad experience, and don't know how/can't be bothered to think up/adjust tactics accordingly. That's not CCP's problem. That's yours. And as CCP has been nice enough to say several times now, including in this thread, it's not changing.

HTFU, or go make (yet another) thread to whine about the evil webs.

I agree, I haven't made much use of serpentis web bonuses, but all the rage in this thread makes me want to go give it a try now. If ship features (in this case, web bonus) can't stand out in meaningful ways, then why bother with this balancing work in the first place? "Moving everything towards a middle ground" as you put it is what most games do, and reduces true variety to a mere illusion of variety.

Also, I'm a little unclear on where the Cynabal stands now. Giving it a warp speed bonus feels a big gimmicky. Gimmicky is fine as long as this token bonus isn't being used to justify a nerf elsewhere. If you're doing fleet warps, it'll be a moot point point 90% of the time. I can't say that warp speed comes up too often in our PvP postmortems.

The cynabal really doesn't need to be nerfed, at least no one here seems to think so. Is the idea is to just move it out of the spotlight a bit to give other ships a larger chunk of the mindshare?

Warping speed buff is great, but its a lame bonus. Lowering scan res and agility an giving more sig, these bonuses just contradict each other, how would you imagine ship ship to be used?

That's about what I had figured myself. Napkin math for the win.

So now it just looks like the choice is up between 3 turrets and 2 Nos, or 3 Nos and 2 turrets. I halfway imagine that the addition of a dronebay will make up for the loss of the third turret in that eventuality. Ought to end up decently close to it's previous DPS rating with 3 turrets.

The Phantasm is my favorite PvE ship. In high and low sec it use it routinely for ratting.

While the changes mean making fitting changes, I can deal with that, I have already tried about a dozen fits. I am going to have to increases some fitting skills to get to the point where the extra low slot is useful. The loss of the high either means dropping a laser or carrying a mobile tractor. With a 250 m3 hold - the tractor means a very tight cargo space for loot and salvage. More returns to base during runs to drop loot.

The extra speed is nice, the AB bonus, too - but with the Grid and CPU where they are, I probably will not fit an AB, at least until I get my skills up.

I may when it is all said and done revert to a destroyer for high sec ratting and park my Phantasm for a couple of months.

5 more points of CPU and 5 of Grid would open some real possibilities for folks who are not max'ed on skills.

But wait - I am talking about PvE...........so never mind......balancing is about max skill players and PvP.

Silly me.

Lets hope Rattlesnake would still be able to have sentry drones, if not Im reprocessing mine into minerals and trashing them.

Based on the idiocy we are witnessing, expect a drone bandwidth of 50, with bonuses strictly for heavies.
It will of course, be a complete waste of a ship.

Maximum skills in EVE are minimum requirement for discussion, folks. V's or GTFO!

How about you address the myriad issues people have with these proposed cruiser changes first, then focus on ruining the battleships?

Giving it a missile bonus instead of kenetic/thermic bones and making the drone bonus more general would make it more complete (even if that requires a to tune down it's current damage potential a little bit.)

actually it is quite logical as the gurista missions use kin/Therm missiles .. so its following its races lore damage type..

actually that's just an advantage that you made up, because you think you should get all-damage type bonuses all the time.

If you can't afford a 40m rig on a 250m cruiser, you can always shore this up with implants. Needing to make actual fitting choices is a good thing, ships shouldn't just be able to automatically fit the largest guns and oversized tank without any fitting help.

your insane. right now the ashimmu does its role just fine. without the 90% web everything will just burn away. 2 medium armor reps? you cant be serious that wont last in any serious fight. RIGHT NOW the ashimmu is fine with 2 1600's 5 medium neuts and 1 or 2 90% webs. its perfect for switching off logi chains as we speak. the proposed change will make it useless. as all targets will litterly afterburner away from it. it has to sacrafice 2 mids for webs just to hold down a logi.

o yeah 2 reps? so what is that like 600 dps tank under links? so 2 vexor navy's will just kill you.

It's not shortsighted to not compare a ship it isn't meant to compete with. Sure, armor tank it and make it into a ****** zealot, see how far that gets you. Congrats, you now have a ****** utility zealot with no damage application, worse tank, and twice as expensive. Cool story bro.

Sure, try fleets where they will be limited by zealot AB speed, or zealots will be limited to phantasm range, or the weaker tank of the tasm ****** armor tank.

If you're going to fly a fast ship, in a fleet where its limited to a slower speed, why even have the speed bonus?

Fact is it isn't an "AMAZING AHAC". It's a ****** AHAC, and the fact you think it is at all comparable shows how lazy, or stupid, you are. Do you even EFT?

More so, compare a at best "meh" wanna be ahac, with the gila posted prior: http://i.imgur.com/NpWi1Ux.png

Where you get 860 dps and 30k EHP, or the 90% webs, and you want to add a meh ahac as a comparable ship? I've heard of stockholm syndrome before, but this is just sad. Why would anyone accept such a mediocre entry as a pirate line up?

I think this is what everyone is anxiously awaiting...

you should pretty much already know what they're going to be.

i dont think so, i hardly think the nightmare is going to get an AB bonus, it would just be a waste, & what size drones are going to be launched from the rattlesnake?

There's a reason the cargo holds don't usually make it into the OP but it isn't a good one. I'll try to work on that in the future. I'm going to change the cargo for the cruisers to the following numbers:

Ashimmu: 430
Cynabal: 400
Gila: 440
Phantasm: 410
Vigilant: 450

Look for the battleship post at the start of next week.

You're right, sorry I missed it before. Will correct the OP.

why does the phantasm have such a high align time?
its an attack cruiser right ? so look at the vigilant align time and compare it

cynabal align time is a fair bit better than the vigilants

as much as i agree with you... ccp got other plans...

though a bonus to tracking and speed would be awesome.